Stand-up Courses

[Bethany]

I've been thinking about these for a while, when I first started out I went on one with a friend, I'd already been doing stand-up for a couple of weeks when she got in touch and asked if I fancied going. It was run by Janice Connolly and Archie Kelly was guest tutor, both of them fresh from Phoenix nights (which I know dates this story.)

The course was useful to me, but the lessons I learned wouldn't really help until much much later.

Cut to 6 years down the line and the same friend got in touch with me to ask if I might help out as a guest tutor on the stand-up course that they run.

I jumped at the chance, as I think that if you can you've got a duty to the industry to try to help make it a better place with better comics, promoters and audiences for the good of us all, but that's possibly because I think I might be a goddamned communist, or at the very least un-American.

Now, of the people who went on the course that I was on I believe I'm the only person who's still performing, my friend is a teacher and works in the industry in another capacity as well as running the stand-up course (she doesn't teach on it another comedian does the teaching).

And I've heard a lot of discussion about whether stand-up courses are worth it, if they can actually help anyone and if those who would succeed would do so anyway without the aid of the course.

Personally, like Jimmy Carr, I don't believe in "Funny bones" I think that funny on and off stage are separate things with interchangeable skills, some people can be the funniest people you ever meet, lightning fast and very witty, but on stage they can't get that across, and some people are the opposite. I also think you can learn how to make people laugh I don't think that sort of thing is innate I think it's learned, and I think that provided you're willing to put the effort in, and you're capable from learning from your mistakes and critically examining what you do on stage there's no reason you can't keep getting better and better, up to a point obivously, there is yet to be a comedian out there who transformed on stage in front of people into the Platonic form of the joke in a burst of pure light.

So I believe that Stand-up courses can have a place, the problem with a lot of them is that the ones who would have gone on to be successful comics do and the others don't go anywhere other than down to the pub with their friends and tell them about how they used to be a stand-up, and they were good at it, but they just couldn't balance it with other commitments, and people had said that they could be the next Michael McIntyre.

I think that what stand-up courses need to do is be able to teach those who do start off unable to write a joke, who don't have "Natural talent" and to teach some of the skills which are not related to stage, because that's where the focus seems to be with most if not all of them.

The 5-10 minutes a day that the act who's on the stand-up course is on the stage performing is vital but it's a tiny proportion of what actually goes in to being a stand-up, it has a disproportionate impact too, do badly you don't get booked, do well get booked a lot more, however there are other things that they need to be able to teach that they don't.

As far as I'm aware there's not a stand-up course out there that teaches how to go about writing a CV, telling the newer acts that the industry is small enough that any bullshit you put on there is likely to get found out, so if you've been on at a gong show where Jim Jefferies was MC you've not "supported Jim Jefferies" If you were at a new act/new material night where Jason Manford turned up and did 10 minutes of new stuff and you were on last you haven't "Headlined above Jason Manford" or if you were on before him "supported Jason Manford"

That going on last regularly at gigs where between the 10 acts on the bill the combined gigging total is less than 500 gigs is not headlining and you don't "Regularly headline small rooms" you regularly go on last at open mic nights.

And these are things that will trip you up, and make promoters less likely to believe what you're saying and less likely to book you, and that if you do get booked off the back of it by a promoter who is either brand new and doesn't know yet how the industry works, or is taking a chance on you because you might be telling the truth, and you turn up and die badly in a way that shows up your lack of experience, then they're not going to book you again for a very long time, and the new promoter may learn a lesson from that and end up becoming quite a big time promoter and you've pissed on your chips with them. The established promoter may talk to other promoters about how badly you did and you find that you're having difficulty getting gigs.

The circuit's changed quite a lot since I started when you could get away with stuff like this because there were fewer comics. Alex Boardman on another forum told a story about how in the mid 90s when he started out he put some bullshit press quotes that he made up and said were written by the Guardian on his CV, these quotes were later reprinted by The Guardian and became actual quotes, but these days with the internet it's easier to see through things like this, and there's about 100x more comedians out there all looking for the same gigs.


Not a single comedy course, as far as I'm aware, teaches that as a new comic that it's not advisable to sit in the corner of the green room and pontificate about your experiences on the comedy circuit and your great knowledge of comedy when you've been going under 18 months and are sharing a green room with comics who've been going 18 years.

I don't think any course, as far as I'm aware, teaches you how to write emails to promoters, who to get in touch with, how often you should email them if they don't reply to you. Even little things like what level you need to be at before posting when you're free on forums like this one, or sending out your fortnightly availability to promoters who regularly book you.

Stuff like checking when you book a gig where it is and what time they need you there, and making sure that you're there on time and that you've got the phone number of the promoter in case of any trouble on the night with traffic etc.


All of these are vital skills that you need as a stand-up, all as important as the skills you need when you get up on that stage, because without them you're going to find it more difficult to even get to that point.

And as a stand-up most of the learning about performance that you do you do on stage, it's there that you learn what does and doesn't work, how to judge where a laugh will come in a new bit of material, how to emphasise the words for the biggest impact.

How to banter, how to turn that round so that you can switch from that to material without it looking forced and without audiences being able to see the joins.

And the only way to get better at that is through stage time.

The other aspects of performance that you can teach off stage are what needs to be taught, keeping your head up, standing at the front of the stage, going through material and taking bits out of it that aren't adding to the jokes to get down to the diamond in the middle of the idea.


In terms of how to teach them to write better material it's a tricky order, because on the course it's a supportive environment with others who are all in the same boat performing to each other, and with you only able to judge how well you're doing and how you're progressing alongside other people who are at the same level as you. You then finish the course and go out into the world of gigging where the audiences don't care that you've had a 6 week course they only care if you're funny and mostly they're not prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt.

So it can be a strange situation to be in, I think what you need on a course is for there to be a guest pro comic every week who does a short set and helps with questions etc, just so you've got something you can measure your progress against. I think that whilst the courses need to start off supportive, there also needs to be a more critical deconstruction of the students material to really get to what does and doesn't work and why that is, teaching brevity, going through with the group and thinking about what in various bits of their material could be got rid of and still have the joke work.

Workshopping bits of material, maybe each week giving them a topic and getting them to pair up and go away and come back in half a hour with 3 jokes each based on that topic.

Stuff like that would work in a teaching environment, and be useful for teaching stand-up, and letting the people on the course get their money's worth and helping to teach those who aren't as "naturally funny" how to work on the things that they can.

Personally I don't think that stand-up courses are good enough, I think that the way they try to teach new stand-ups could do with looking at, and I think that there is the potential for there to be some really useful stand-up courses out there that would help a new generation of comics to come through.


Sorry for the essay again, it's been swirling round in my head and I thought this might be the best place for it.
_________________
"Comedy is thus the very opposite of shame: shame endeavors to maintain the veil, while comedy relies on the gesture of unveiling."

[Tinman]

I like many 'new' comics started by doing a course and have since listened to lots of arguments for and against. Unsurprisingly, most of the against arguments seem to come from people who didn't do a course and vice versa.

Fundamentally I don't think a course can make you funny. Equally, I don't think it can make you unfunny. I do think it can be an accelerator. There are lots of fundamental errors that are not always obvious to the new comic.
From faily complex things like the concept of establishing an identity and operating within a single comedy world (and just over the boundaries of said world) to really simple stuff like moving the mic stand out of the way and saying hello.
The more complex things don't immediately fall into place of course but at least you leave the course having some idea where the goal posts are so over the coming months and years your development can be more focussed.

The other great thing the course provided was a boat to be in. A boat of other excited, eager, terrified people sharing the same experiences. Over time you meet new people and things become less terrifying but the people that I shared those first few months with will always be special.

Some courses are bound to be better than others, and focus on different elements of being a stand up, but in my view, it's better to do one than not. You've got nothing to lose.
_________________
Tony Tinman
07507 788901
tony@tonytinman.co.uk
www.tonytinman.co.uk
Two piecey swim swim now you fry now potato

[Ash-LT]

[Bethany]

I think that the exceptions are few though, as a rule of thumb I send out a trawling email once a quater with a full bio and any updated press quotes and whenever available a new show reel.

I then send out an availability list once a fortnight to promoters who've booked me in the past.

I've also found that posting availability on here has very limited success, probably one in 30-50 times I've posted that I'm free and looking for a gig has it actually heralded a response.

Outside of that I reply to every single advert on here and other forums that's for someone doing a 20 or more. If I've not gigged for them before I send a bio and press quotes and a show reel and wait. If they've not specified that they want someone who's got a TV profile, or that they're looking for open spots then they'll either not reply or they'll get in touch and tell me that they're not offering any money would I still want to do it. In both cases there's no harm done. And partly that's their problem rather than mine as they've not been specific enough.

If they've put "Comedians needed" and then a date and location and no other info then everyone should reply to that and ask after it. and then make the decision on if you'll do it if you get an offer on it.

I think part of the job is doing your research. Learn who the promoters are, what sort of level of gigs they promote, what experience they're looking for from their acts etc and then when you start out you know not to get in touch with Peter Vincent when he's looking for a Closer at Middlesbrough Town Hall and tell them that you've done a cracking 5 at the Comedy Balloon, and everyone there said you could have gone on for another 20 minutes.

I think that there's a handful of promoters who you need to get to know and who have their own idiosyncratic way of booking, but those guys do tend to be the ones who you end up working for after a long while so by the time your paths cross professionally you'll have heard about them through other comics.

I think knowing your market value is important, if you're an open spot apply for open spot gigs and apply to as many as you can, when you start to find your feet start looking to bet booked by promoters who have a progression, and try to book in as many as you can, once you're up to the point where you're starting to get the odd paid 20 here and there I think it's the trickiest, because you know that you're good for a 20 in a small room, but the big rooms with the decent pay still ellude you, that's the point where it becomes tricky to know who you should be asking for gigs from.

It's that semi-pro stage that's suddenly appeared over the last 7-10 years in this industry, it never existed until then apparently. I've got friends who started out 2-3 years before me and they started doing the open spots on the bill at big clubs with all pro line-ups and spent about a year doing that and then started getting paid gigs and suddenly found themselves with enough work to live off.

There wasn't so much a separation of open mic circuit and pro circuit.

It is a tricky one, for me it was a case of stopping gigging for places where there wasn't a progression, and just keeping on phoning and emailing anyone who offered a progression.

The other side to this was learning which promoters booked who for what spots.

eg, knowing the sort of acts that the main promoters book, and going "well I'm not quite as good as any of the opening or closing acts that they book but in 6 months I think I will be so I'll get in touch with them about an open spot" or going "I'm as good as their opening acts, I'll apply for those when they ask around."

Also there's not letting a promoter take the piss. If you've had 5 bad gigs for them over the years, and then you do 6 blinding try out spots for them in a row and they tell you you're still not ready to make the next step, then don't keep going back to them, give them a couple of years where you don't gig for them, they're taking the piss and they've decided that you're not really for them. The only way to change that is for them to see you with fresh eyes a few years down the line when you're noticeably better.


That stage is the hardest one to get through, you're getting a few paid bits here and there and you're gigging too much to do your day job properly but not getting paid enough to quit it yet and it's a hard slog, and you only get out of the other side of it when it appears that some promoters have got together and said "You're ready now" and suddenly you find that people start getting back to you and you go from gigging Sunday-Thursday to gigging Thursday-Sunday.

Though the reality of that is it just takes chutzpah and repeatedly asking every time a spot becomes available, because if you're not at the top of a promoter's list, provided they don't hate you and everything you stand for, they'll eventually get low enough down that list to book you and then it's up to you to shine at that gig, and if you do they'll remember it and get you back and all it takes is a couple of these and your diary starts to fill up.

For me it suddenly happened, I had loads of gigs that paid very little and an entire diary of empty weekends, then suddenly I got a last minute replacement for a Saturday gig and the promoter liked me and I got to go back a few more times, then another one got added at a big Stags and Hens venue and I did great at that one, suddenly I started getting more and more, at first it was just Saturdays that filled up then full weekends. Now I've not got an empty Friday or Saturday in the diary until May.


Fucking hell I don't half go on.
_________________
"Comedy is thus the very opposite of shame: shame endeavors to maintain the veil, while comedy relies on the gesture of unveiling."

[mattstickman]

[The Stun]

Hi folks

I've done a couple of beginners stand-up courses and a more advanced Writing for stand up course, all in London, I also canvassed opinions about other courses and wrote an epic blog on the subject

Hope you find it helpful

http://sean-ruttledge.blogspot.com/2012/03/stand-up-comedy-courses-in-london-good.html

Cheers
_________________
www.stun.co.uk Bringing Britain THE TRUTH!

[HazelHumph]

Hi Bethany.

I've been running a Beginners Course (with open mic spots available to people who do it) when I can for a few years. It's mainly people with a genuine interest in comedy who've done the course so maybe I've been lucky but many are still gigging (or at least writing), one did well in the Chortle Student comedy comp a while back and a couple have won heats in other competitions.

The thing is - the people I've "taught" are able to be funny - they just needed the feedback of a group environment (and to get used to performing in front of others) and maybe to look at and try out different styles of comedy - and of course to tweak, edit, strim and brutally drop many of their beloved ideas to get a working set.

Maybe I'm fulfilling that dismissive old maxim - "those who can't do - teach" - but it seems to help kick start people into performing. Also, as I'm a promoter, I include in the course aspects of getting gigs. i.e. Do the donkey work with regards contacting promoters (and how to do so), be nice to people & keep in touch with people who can help you get work, don't get in the way or be demanding or a nob, turn up on time, keep writing & testing new stuff in between tried and tested, DO NOT OVER-RUN, DO NOT UNDER-RUN (unless things are going seriously badly), don't go on Chortle asking everyone to book you when they don't know who you are or what you are like, don't try too hard to be funny when you are not actually on stage, try to value yourself reasonably as you progress and don't get taken advantage of etc. I've even got a hand-out about this side of things. If only I could take my own advice.

I just about cover venue costs running the course (sadly people don't let you bring comedy students into their room as eagerly as they let you bring drinking comedy punters into a gig without charging venue costs), but have been told it's far more useful than a one day course one of my students paid £80 for in thatLondon - with the main reason being that they didn't provide any critical feedback - just said "Well done you!" to everyone who did a bit at the end. Well done me!

I'm sure there are lots of useful courses out there that you don't need to pay an extortionate amount for. To be honest I think the main benefit of a course out here in the Essex sticks is meeting new comics in a non-competitive (if it's run well) environment - and sharing ideas/experiences with them before it all descends into gossip and bitterness. Plus I only charge peanuts. But in places where there are plenty of open mic gigs - I'd recommend people go out there and gig rather than paying for a course - or even get together and work through exercises in a "how to do stand-up book" and rate each other on how they do - and save some of their pennies for transport.

Erm - not really that interesting or useful - but how I think comedy courses should be run and used (or not).

Hazel x
_________________
"Apparently genuine" - Chortle

[Bethany]

I'd completely forgotten about this thread. It's a bit embarrassing to read through it again.

I agree with what you said Hazel, sounds like the course you do is a good one.
_________________
"Comedy is thus the very opposite of shame: shame endeavors to maintain the veil, while comedy relies on the gesture of unveiling."

[KP]

Hi Hazel

Good thread for beginners to read like myself.

I am out in the Essex sticks, Rayleigh to be precise. Where, when and how much are your courses? Do you have a website I could look at with the potential to book on?

(Ive also had decent information/feedback from another poster on here from our way who was also very helpful). Its appreciated by new performers like myself for any information from experienced performers about they ways of the industry.

Thanks
Kevin

[HazelHumph]

Hi KP.

Wivenhoe near Colchester. Bit of a trek from Rayleigh.

I believe the website button below my posts should lead to www.wivenhoefunnyfarm.co.uk - contact details etc on there.

Hazel x
_________________
"Apparently genuine" - Chortle

[Anthony Miller]

If you want to run a comedy course to make yourself a bit more money
run a comedy course but please save us the pious shit like

I think that if you can you've got a duty to the industry to try to help make it a better place with better comics, promoters and audiences for the good of us all

I'm still trying to get the cubes of vomit out of my keyboard.

Similarly, when a promoter says they are looking for "an opener" or "a middle spot", if it isn't a gig you are familiar with, you don't necessarily know what standard they are looking for. One gigs opener is another gigs middle spot is another gigs open spot. So you end up going online and trawling through listings to see if you can see who they have booked for these spots before to get an idea of the right level, and once you are convinced that you are indeed of the standard they are looking for you go back, refresh the page, and find a note saying "sorted now, thanks for all the replies."

Oh just apply - within reason - for everything.
Most decent promoters wont pay anyone they dont know
and most decent promoters know their acts.
If they dont they're in the wrong job and deserve to be ripped off.
Most people who book you with a view to paying you are
at the end of the line .... people who've seen you or heard of you.
Gigging is it's own form of marketing.

I know of one promoter who says he won't book anyone who lists Mirth Control under their paid work, another who says they won't book anyone who boasts of having won gong shows or competitions

I know lots of acts and promoters and most of them talk utter dogshit too.
I'd say just be honest with people, talk yourself up if you want but remember
whatever bull you invent you have to live up to when you get there
or it'll do you more harm than good long term.
You can over-analyse this stuff.

Also you cant teach people business acumen.
If you haven't got any get an agent...

Marketing needs do be done and is a chore but at the end of the line
turds cannot be polished.

Jimmy Carr did a course once.
Personally I just couldnt ever pay anyone to make me be funny
for some reason the money would set fire to my hands before I handed it over
but everyone's different...

Over running never did Patrick Monahan any harm.

Erm ... one thing that is annoying is the number of people off comedy courses
who send emails trying to bribe gigs off us "I'll flyer for free, I'll bring mates" etc
when all we actually want them to do is write jokes and/or be funny.
Also women who write flirty emails for gigs are a pain in the arse.
It just makes you want to vomit.
And I wish both male and female acts wouldn't put fucking kisses
at the end of their emails. Or "hugs". If you want a hug that much
get a boa constrictor
_________________
I have an unsatisfactory penis but it is the least of my problems.
http://www.pearshapedcomedy.com/Document2.htm

[AndreKing]

I offered to host a comedy course not so long ago, didn't get many responses, hardly surprising given the current financial climate and that in general new acts who could use the instruction are generally not being paid for the spots they can get. (In addition to pretty much no one knowing who I am). So as a result, I'm in the process of providing video tutorials, they will be freely available online and for use by any and all at no charge what so ever. I'll put a thread up when its ready and we'll see how it goes.
As has been mentioned, there are an awful lot of comedy courses out there run by people who barely know what they're on about, raising an entire generation of comics blindly mimicking their tutors mediocrity. I may not be right, but the least I can provide is an alternative
_________________
"...King's comedy is like the squeaky hinge on the lid of Pandora's Box!" M Neilsen <b>Radioworks